Divorce Discussions Podcast: Managing Grief During and After Divorce

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Here is a transcript of our chat:

0:03 hello and welcome to another divorce

0:06 discussions conversation and I am really

0:09 happy to introduce Santou Eve Carter she is the founder of grief support services Global

and she has over 25 years

0:18 experience as a psychotherapist

0:21 specializing in trauma and grief she’s

0:24 also a Hospice chaplain and motivational

0:26 speaker and currently Sanu works with

0:30 therapist coaches and directly with

0:31 families to help them manage um grief

0:35 situations through divorce death and

0:38 other kinds of losses in life so Sanu

0:41 welcome thank you so much for being here

0:43 thank you thank you for inviting me

0:45 Marty and so I always like to start out

0:47 this question because um you know you

0:49 and I are both in areas of work where a

0:52 lot of people don’t want to go so what

0:55 what brought you to this area and why is

0:58 this kind of your passionate

1:01 interest yeah so um it’s an unusual

1:05 route um so I’m a a second generation

1:08 genocide Survivor and that

1:10 transgenerational trauma over the years

1:13 has really fragmented my family and

1:17 ironically one of the things I remember

1:19 my father saying was family needs to

1:21 stick together and that’s a kind of

1:23 Mantra that most people live with right

1:24 until they find themselves in a

1:26 situation where the family’s breaking

1:27 apart and so I really felt to study um

1:31 systemic family therapy and to really

1:34 help families find ways um to

1:38 communicate better to have Harmony um to

1:42 work through traumas that might be

1:44 affecting a spouse that they hadn’t

1:46 worked through before and it’s affecting

1:48 things badly so I I hold a strong sense

1:51 of hope for people um either before the

1:55 divorce or even after the divorce like

1:57 sometimes divorce is necessary if

1:59 there’s physical abuse for example or

2:01 you know other kinds of abuse and uh

2:03 it’s not being worked through I mean it

2:05 can be worked through but if it if it

2:07 you know if both people aren’t willing

2:09 to work through it right then sometimes

2:11 it’s necessary and so I I help rebuild

2:14 people to be able to live fully again

2:17 and to love again oh I love that that is

2:19 such a positive message and so I’ve run

2:22 into just full disclosure because the

2:24 internet is a small place we seem to be

2:27 running into each other at a lot of

2:28 different events and I always think to

2:30 myself if that is happening there is a

2:32 reason for that and so um I I I totally

2:37 understand your your your passion around

2:39 this what do you think people need to

2:42 understand about grief that they don’t

2:44 get

2:46 now do you mean grief from divorce in

2:48 particular or let’s go any kind of grief

2:51 because I I really think as a person

2:53 who’s been divorced and has lost a

2:55 husband and both of their parents and

2:57 almost all of their family relatives um

3:00 you know I don’t necessarily see that

3:02 there’s a huge dis I don’t delineate one

3:05 grief from so let’s just say loss let’s

3:08 maybe say loss there’s a lot of

3:10 misconceptions about loss out there what

3:12 do you think are some of the big ones

3:14 that really negatively impact how people

3:16 are handling

3:18 this yeah well I think one of the things

3:20 I want to mention is the sense of

3:23 recovery time um I I don’t like the word

3:27 recovery um but if we’re thinking about

3:30 it as a bounceback time what different

3:33 people use different terms right so this

3:35 sense of time frame about a loss um

3:39 varies from person to person but what I

3:41 don’t think Society really understands

3:43 is how long it can take to um work

3:47 through the loss and that’s because no

3:51 one really understands the the type of

3:54 relationship that you or someone would

3:56 have had with the person that they’ve

3:58 lost we’ll say lost to mean all types of

4:01 loss right um

4:04 so and if it’s a conflictual

4:07 relationship if things didn’t get worked

4:09 out or resolved or things weren’t

4:11 forgiven before someone died or you know

4:14 they they lost some um it can actually

4:17 complicate grief even more and make it

4:19 even more difficult and so for someone

4:22 to say aren’t you over it yet is

4:24 completely

4:25 insensitive because they don’t know

4:28 what’s going on inside the person and

4:31 all that they have to work through in

4:33 order to find a sense of Peace about you

4:37 know the their loss yeah I think that’s

4:39 a really good point and I see that all

4:41 the time especially um you know and I’m

4:45 going to talk about divorce now but you

4:47 know people say well you wanted the

4:48 divorce you filed for it so now why is

4:50 it still bothering you a year later like

4:52 this is what you wanted isn’t it and

4:53 they’re almost like combative when they

4:55 say that to people yes yes yes and in

4:59 fact I’ve got a resource for your

5:00 audience that talks about that

5:02 specifically so it talks about um all

5:06 the nuanced emotions that someone might

5:08 feel even if they wanted it and I think

5:10 it’s like on page one or two I addressed

5:13 that right at the top right at the

5:15 beginning that even if you wanted it

5:18 there’s still a sense of failure sure

5:20 that you have and that’s big um there’s

5:23 there’s all sorts of reasons

5:26 that

5:28 um that the people might still be

5:30 grieving so if someone had come to rely

5:33 on the other person for practical

5:36 reasons and they lose that that support

5:39 that extra support you know practical

5:41 support in the home that’s big Yeah

5:43 because sometimes spouses have to

5:45 completely change their job or change

5:47 their lifestyle change homes there’s a

5:50 lot of loss that comes with divorce yeah

5:53 and people may not kind of think of all

5:56 the all the layers of loss that one has

5:58 to go through with a divorce yeah oh I

6:01 so appreciate you saying that because I

6:03 I always tell people it’s like a divorce

6:05 is like dropping a pebble in a in a in a

6:08 pond you know it’s still but then that

6:10 divorce happens but the ripples keep

6:12 going like way out to the way out to the

6:15 you know the Shor line and there’s all

6:17 those little things like friends that

6:19 all of a sudden stop talking to you and

6:21 maybe like I’m right now I live in Texas

6:24 and it’s there you know there’s it’s

6:25 it’s it’s a churchy community and so

6:28 sometimes the church doesn’t acknowledge

6:30 divorce or or frowns on divorce and then

6:33 people feel like they can’t even go to

6:35 the church that was their safe place so

6:37 all of these kind of things can and I’m

6:39 not saying that about the self I mean

6:40 that can happen anywhere but I noticed

6:42 it more when I moved here um so so

6:46 there’s a lot and thank you for that

6:48 resource it sounds fantastic and I’ll

6:50 make sure all of that information gets

6:52 put in the notes under the under this

6:54 YouTube video so people can reach out to

6:56 you what are some of the other things

6:58 that you think are struggles whether

7:00 it’s loss of a loss of a spouse through

7:02 or a person in your family through death

7:04 or whether it’s a divorce what are some

7:06 of the other issues that maybe as an

7:09 expert you’re aware of that like the

7:11 rest of us maybe aren’t as aware of uh

7:14 as it pertains to

7:16 grief well there’s something significant

7:18 um that I learned in my training as a

7:20 family therapist that most people don’t

7:22 know and I mentioned this in my Resource

7:24 as well because I think it’s so

7:25 important for people to realize this and

7:27 it’s a bit of a shocker

7:29 um but most people think that once the

7:33 divorce is finalized that’s the end of

7:35 the conflict and things will go back to

7:37 peace and there’ll be Harmony and what

7:39 people don’t realize is that actually um

7:42 people well family therapists have been

7:43 tracking and re researching and tracking

7:45 right and it typically takes five years

7:48 for that conflict after the divorce is

7:50 finalized to settle down yeah and so I

7:53 want to be able to say that to people so

7:55 that they hold on to that hope and know

7:58 that there’s a light at the end of the

8:00 tunnel because there can be huge

8:01 conflicts that happen um huge ruptures

8:04 that can happen after the divorce

8:06 especially if there’s children involved

8:07 and you have to negotiate when they go

8:10 to the other space for Christmas and

8:12 holidays and pickup times and what is

8:15 what are they eating at the other

8:16 person’s home and you know there’s huge

8:19 rows that can continue to happen and new

8:21 ones as well yeah and that’s that’s one

8:23 of you know that’s that key co-parenting

8:25 thing that you know so you know the the

8:27 the co-parenting plants I got to say are

8:29 getting better because I mediate a lot

8:31 of those co-parenting plans but there’s

8:33 still both people have to commit to it

8:35 and if one person wants to be an ass

8:36 they’re going to be an ass like there’s

8:38 nothing you can do you can’t stop it so

8:40 so I appreciate that you talk about all

8:42 of that stuff what about so let’s talk a

8:45 moment because a lot of people like

8:48 myself are dealing you know we’ve had

8:49 multiple kinds of grief in our life um

8:52 what about the loss of a parent uh

8:56 specifically because a lot you know

8:58 again um I’m reaching an age where most

9:00 of my friends if they haven’t lost their

9:03 parents they’re dealing with parents

9:04 that are in in hospice or that are in

9:07 long-term care or that have Alzheimer’s

9:09 or dementia or you know any number of

9:13 chronic illnesses with the agent so what

9:16 what’s that kind of grief how’s that

9:19 different maybe or or what’s special or

9:21 unique about that kind of grief that

9:22 people should be aware

9:24 of yeah so I think um with that kind of

9:28 grief that kind of what I would call

9:30 anticipatory grief you know you’re

9:32 expecting it to happen but you don’t

9:34 know when and you’re anticipating at

9:36 some point um in the not too distant

9:41 future um it it might happen people tend

9:44 to have a strong sense of hope and a

9:47 strong sense of well it’s not going to

9:48 happen today it’s not gonna happen next

9:50 week and they keep hoping that it’ll

9:52 just be one more day or one more week or

9:54 one more month and and I remember um

9:56 when I was at my father’s side when he

9:58 was dying of canc answer I would be

10:00 thinking just one more day just one more

10:02 day and that real strong sense that

10:06 keeps you going I think is slightly

10:09 different than uh grief from a loss of

10:12 relationship like divorce and uh

10:14 post-death grief so I think that’s

10:16 that’s quite unique yeah

10:19 um and and it’s and you know I’ve got

10:23 another resource um called stages of

10:25 Hope and it’s for people with a terminal

10:28 illness and how

10:29 um family members can support uh the

10:32 person that’s dying and to give

10:33 themselves a bit of Hope as well and

10:36 what you know what can help um

10:40 because there there’s different ways of

10:42 kind of talking with someone who’s dying

10:45 I mean that that’s a whole other kettle

10:47 of fish um you know which I can

10:50 elaborate on another time I’ll say a

10:51 little bit now

10:53 um uh there’s something about helping

10:56 the dying person if they have well uh if

11:00 they have a a sense of spirituality but

11:02 even if they don’t sometimes they start

11:03 exploring their spirituality as they get

11:05 you in the last month of them living and

11:08 so that’s one of the ways that family

11:10 members or friends can support someone

11:12 is just exploring with them what are you

11:14 thinking is going to happen do you have

11:16 any fears of what might happen to your

11:18 body or to your soul once your body is

11:20 you know left behind so it’s an

11:23 incredibly spiritual experience for

11:26 those who are dying and it’s a real

11:28 privilege and honor to be a part of that

11:31 if you’re willing to be open listening

11:33 to what they have to say if you’re

11:35 willing to communicate and be with them

11:37 in that process it’s it’s such a

11:39 rewarding experience and I think you

11:41 know when you say that I I that that

11:44 really you know kind of chgs up my heart

11:47 strengths because my husband was at home

11:49 for seven years I was his caregiver

11:51 before he passed away but the you know

11:55 there is there’s also I don’t know how

11:58 to put we like to see death and that

12:01 that caring but there’s also like a

12:04 really difficult side if the person who

12:06 is um you know passing is combative is

12:12 um Angry is hostile is frightened or

12:16 upset or whatever is going on for them

12:19 that can be a bit of a different

12:20 experience and I’m guessing the grief

12:22 after that for the family members is

12:24 very different right yes indeed and it

12:27 sounds like what you’re Des in is

12:29 someone with dementia because that is

12:31 one of the the traits that they can

12:32 exhibit when someone does have dementia

12:34 and it can be quite challenging um

12:37 before not just because of their

12:40 behavior but also because you have a

12:42 real sense of you’ve lost the person you

12:45 used to know because they’re you used to

12:47 have a Harmon a generally harmonious

12:49 relationship with them and now it’s

12:50 fraught with friction on a daily basis

12:53 yeah so you you you know in that sense

12:55 you’ve

12:55 lost who they were and I think the

12:59 biggest tip I can give your audience

13:01 members to to really take on board is um

13:05 to hold on to and bring up the happy

13:07 memories I know that can be hard there’s

13:10 work to do to to process and work

13:12 through those feelings of the trauma

13:15 that you will have experienced towards

13:17 the end of life but if you work through

13:20 the trauma you can then start working on

13:22 the grief and then those positive

13:24 memories will naturally start to Bubble

13:26 Up in time yeah oh that you know what

13:28 such a positive message to you’re such a

13:31 it’s a tough topic but you keep it so

13:34 optimistic and positive about it and so

13:36 I know we’ve covered both kinds of grief

13:38 and and I do think that is important

13:40 because I think a lot of people

13:43 especially you know my age and not women

13:45 going through the gray divorce what you

13:47 know now now they’re saying pretty much

13:49 anything over 50 is a gray divorce and

13:51 I’m thinking gosh that seems really

13:53 young but you know there so there’s a

13:55 lot of people that are deal that

13:56 sandwich generation they’re dealing with

13:58 their own es they’re dealing with you

13:59 know caring for parents or or maybe

14:01 losing parents at this point in time so

14:04 there’s a there can be a lot of grief

14:06 what about and we’ve just got a couple

14:07 of minutes so this is going to be a a

14:09 big question with a short answer so I

14:10 totally understand I’m putting you on

14:12 the spot what about helping your kids

14:15 Express grief and let’s talk about grief

14:18 around the divorce because grief around

14:20 loss of a grandparent or something is

14:21 huge so let’s maybe let’s just focus on

14:23 the divorce like how could we how could

14:25 we as parents help our kids with that

14:30 yeah so certainly the children will feel

14:32 the loss of their parents through a

14:34 divorce um there’s it it really justes

14:38 depend on the type of child that you

14:40 have their personality and and how they

14:43 kind of Express their grief um so they

14:45 might want to express it through

14:47 emotions they might withdraw um other

14:50 other children might express it through

14:52 anger um so so and anger and sadness are

14:56 the flip sides of the same coin so

14:59 the best suggestion I would give is to

15:01 really just talk with them and ask them

15:05 what’s going to help you to feel better

15:06 about this so really open up that

15:09 communication process and check in with

15:12 them regularly because um there could be

15:15 some risks that children take that could

15:18 be harmful to them because they don’t

15:19 feel well supported by their parents or

15:21 they’re they’re not checking in and so

15:23 they could they could take some risks

15:24 that aren’t so helpful to to you know

15:27 and I’ll I’ll I’ll be up front and say

15:29 self Haring like self-cutting is one of

15:32 the ways to they think is an effective

15:34 way to relieve their pain because they

15:36 feel isolated and alone and no one’s

15:37 supporting them so parents do please

15:39 reach out and talk to your children and

15:41 now you know with the readily available

15:43 um various substances alcohol drugs

15:46 prescription medications I mean there’s

15:47 all kinds of things so yes I I’m thank

15:50 you for bringing that up and one of the

15:51 things I do believe is speaking honestly

15:53 about these things so don’t want people

15:55 getting paranoid but be aware so s you

15:58 thank you so much and down again

16:00 download the resource because I talk

16:01 about that in my uh resource for divorce

16:03 family as well yeah that’s what I was

16:04 just going to say so I’m going to

16:06 encourage everybody um make sure you

16:08 check in the in the in the YouTube notes

16:11 uh grab that resource take a look at it

16:13 and santu if people want to reach out

16:15 and find out how to work with you what

16:17 is the best way to do that so um

16:20 griefsupport

16:22 doco contact great thank you so much and

16:26 thank you for sharing all your wisdom

16:27 and you know kind of making this a

16:29 really approachable subject something

16:31 that a lot of people feel very

16:32 uncomfortable about so thank you so much

16:34 for this sentu oh you’re very welcome

16:36 thank you Marty it’s been a pleasure

16:38 talking with you you too